83. Communication: The Musician's Key to Growth and Relationships
season 3, episode 23
Episode: 83
Chris Webb
Welcome to Musicians Tip Jar, where we talk about musicians and money. Well, we try our best to leave space between what you're thinking and what I'm thinking, for listening.
Dave Tamkin
I just like to assume everyone can already hear what I'm thinking. And then I just start speaking from wherever I want.
Chris Webb
I'm Chris Webb joined by my co host, the guy, always happy to lend an ear, Dave Tamkin.
Dave Tamkin
Thanks for having me back, Chris, I have two ears. So I was an extra one for you, my friend.
Chris Webb
Today we discuss all the powers that create a strong communicator and how successful musicians use these tools well in all areas of their business and art. We will also give you some simple ways that you can immediately be more effective in your communication, and how to use these skills to increase your opportunities and income. Today's quote comes from Jim Rohn. If you just communicate, you can get by. But if you communicate skillfully, you can work miracles.
Quote of the week
“Throw as much SH*T at the wall as you can, one thing is going to stick, I swear” - Frasco”
Non-profit of the week
This week's nonprofit everybody, we're going back to the roots music project.org in Boulder, Colorado. They are a Colorado nonprofit music incubator. They believe in the power of music to make the world a better place as they empower artists, audiences and venues to create a thriving and inspiring local music scene. Learn more at rootsmusicproject.org.
Chris Webb
So today, we're talking about communication. And we want to make sure that we're clear about what we're trying to do here. The first thing that we want everyone to understand is that we're not saying that everyone needs to be an extrovert. Communication has so many different layers, and so many different applications that what we're trying to do here is put a little bit of a spotlight on that area of your stage, which is going a little too deep in the metaphors here. All we're trying to say is that we're trying yes, there's a lack of communication because like sometimes the art gets too involved in the way I want to say something. But what we are trying to do is help all of us be more effective in our message in our in our stage presence in our business. So we're going to break down a couple of those ways that we can all improve in our communication.
Dave Tamkin
I am so glad we're doing this, because after each podcast you and I discuss what we could be doing better, while we try to articulate our point of view, even in the way that we speak as far as me always saying just or you said you wanted to stop using the word AI at the beginning of all your sentences. And I listen, when you say that, and I believe that's number one. And I have learned that from him.
Chris Webb
Yeah, we tried to say that there are two main strengths in communication. And the first one is, as Dave said, listening, listening is often not the first thing you think of when you're communicating well, but the truth is that good communicators, you'll notice are more listeners than they are speakers. So here's a couple things about listening. When you're listening, you need to keep an open mind. You can't let your mind be judging everything that's happening while you're listening. Because then you're simply not listening, you're thinking. Having that full attention given to the person speaking and listening with your eyes actually making contact eye contact with the person. And even if it's on a zoom, it's still possible to make eye contact. And then asking questions while you're listening, making sure that you're engaging in what that person is saying makes such a difference in having them feel heard. And then sharing back what you've heard is the last part of that. I always think that if someone is really listening, they'll they'll add something to what I said, or they'll reflect on something about what I said immediately after I've said it, and that's how I feel validated that they heard what I even said,
Dave Tamkin
asking questions is also important because you're putting the focus on the speaker, rather than thinking of how you could relate to what they're saying. So I think our first thought is, oh, how do I understand what the person is saying? And you think of things in your own life. And automatically you want to communicate that right back and bring it back to yours. South. But if you could put that on pause, but then in the back of your head for after the person is done trying to get their point across and ask more questions, I think that always helps with not only making sure they're heard, but understanding what's being said.
Chris Webb
And that's a great point. I mean, that is something that's a pet peeve of mine, when you are having a conversation with somebody, and people don't know they're doing this, I don't think but they'll the one up here. Like, oh, I really like going to the beach. And they're like, Oh, well, have you ever been to this beach? You know, they think that they're engaging in your conversation, but what they're really doing is talking about themselves, you know, and then because
Dave Tamkin
they want to relate correct, the first instinct is for relating, but they don't understand like how I'm cutting you off right now, that they're also doing the conversation.
Chris Webb
And that's true, too. That is another part of it, too. And that's, that's goes right to the listening part. But it also, when you're when you're reflecting on what someone is saying, it's important that you engage in something about what they said, go to their world, don't don't make it about you, is really the core of that. And that it is really something we don't consciously mean to do. But people do it all the time. My
Dave Tamkin
friend, Holly Rosati, she starts, when she's getting ready to listen to someone tell a story. She says start from the beginning, tell me everything and leave nothing out. And already that puts this, you know, the storyteller in this like, Oh, she's engaged, she's ready to go. And then along the way, she asked, you know, clarifying questions to get a visual. And it's honestly, you want to spend more time with her because you just feel hurt every time?
Chris Webb
Well, the second part of our communication strengths will be speaking, right. So the first one being listening, obviously, that you need to have some sort of contribution. And so speaking is that second part of the two strengths of communicate strong communication, always take the position that you are the one needing to get the message through when you're speaking. And what I mean by that is Don't Don't think of yourself as if everyone is already where you're at, you need to make sure that you are understanding that people could be coming from so many different places. And they may not have any context to what it is that you're trying to get across in your message. So you need to come from a position in which you are trying to explain everything as if someone has never heard any of this before. And that that is a better place to come from than an arrogant, almost feeling part of assuming everyone knows all these things, right. And that's not always done intentionally. Sometimes it's thinking that you're being respectful by assuming people know certain things, and shaving down how much time it takes you to communicate. But most of the time, people feel more overwhelmed or less engaged by not being included in the details of what makes the content of what you're trying to the message. Get through.
Dave Tamkin
You had mentioned you experienced some of that when you first started teaching the financial scale at CU Denver, that some of the things that you and I had put together on the website, or even stuff that you had in your notes for the class. We have 20 years of doing this, and you're teaching at brand new, and you had some questions that can you explain that, like some of those questions that made you reevaluate how you provided this information?
Chris Webb
This is the perfect example because I thought I was being kind. And assuming that they knew certain parts of financial processes, I guess, you know, because when I suggested getting a savings account, I just said that great. And then they were like, Well wait. First of all, what's the difference between a savings account a checking account, and all these other CDs and all these other things? What's the CD and all this? And then it got more and more? And then it was also what type of savings account? What do I do with a savings account? Are there rules with savings accounts? You know, is there a benefit to going with different banks credit union versus, you know, national banks versus local banks? And all of those things we know the answer to. And these were questions that I didn't include in my explanation. So it was my mistake not to come from a position in which I was one needing to get all of those details into the message. And people need context when you're stating something. So coming out of nowhere, when you're when you're starting your conversation, or you're speaking is it's really important to understand where they're at so that you can meet them there to start that conversation. And so don't lose credibility, right. Don't lose credibility in what you're saying. This is. I'm going to admit this on air. And this is something that I've struggled with, especially in my teen years was exaggeration. And a lot of people struggle with this and some psyche go from you're either you're either too modest about yourself about What you're trying to do, or you exaggerate to a dangerous level, and we're all somewhere in that spectrum, and hopefully you land somewhere in the middle, that's probably the healthiest place to be. But I think so often, we're told to fake it till you make it in so many parts of this world of art and creating your own business. So sometimes we're trying to push that right. But then you make a dangerous place to live, where you might be exaggerating and things that aren't true.
Dave Tamkin
Can you give an example? Yeah,
Chris Webb
I think that it's like when you when you're telling when you're trying to get a gig. And you tell them that you can draw 100 people, because one time you did, yeah, that can be a dangerous situation to put yourself in. Because then they're expecting 100 people. And now you got the gig, which is great, congratulations. But now you've kind of, you've lost a little credibility, if you can't follow through with that 100 people for this gig, even though one time that was true, you might have exaggerated for this gig.
Photo by: Midjourney AI
Dave Tamkin
I know we're gonna go into, you know, this next segment. But one thing I want to say before we go there is that listening takes practice. And that is something that you can always do in every conversation without, you know, the person telling you what they want to tell you, knowing that you're actually practicing and wanting to be more present than you were speaking is a little bit harder, because there's not very, it's not often that you have a chance to practice what you're going to say. But it's just like being on stage where there's nothing wrong with going out loud into a mirror or into the ether, practicing what you want to say to people before you say it. And I found that speaking is very difficult for me, especially with this podcast. And not until season two, that I start seeing some of the things that I wanted to make points on out loud in my room in front of a mirror. So I can articulately convey my perspective to you, Chris Webb, and then hopefully the audience picks up on it as well. But I feel like I get a little bit better with each podcast. So as we go into these topics, keep thinking about different ways that if you're uncomfortable in these situations, how you can practice at home and prepare for these conversations.
Chris Webb
Yeah, that's and that's a perfect segue. But And to add to that people overlook sometimes when they're speaking, is is thinking about what, what how it is what they're saying is going to benefit the person that they're talking to. Sometimes, you know, this isn't relevant, but most of the time, especially in business, it's important to know what what it is you're trying to benefit the person with, by saying what you're saying, right? We waste too much time. I'm not saying that having just fun, regular casual conversations isn't valuable, too. But that is the purpose of those. That's the benefit of those conversations right? Now, or when you're having some of these more important, you know, business related or music related conversations, it's important that you're not just ranting, or that you're not just rambling, right? Those are words that are dangerous, because they can again, go back to losing credibility, they can lose your audience, people have a harder time staying listening, if you're just ranting, what do you say? So now let's make that transition into what makes this whole podcast actually worth listening to communication in music business. The one thing that I've seen my skill level go up and create an immediate result is in the world of negotiation. Being willing to ask what your worth is a part of strong communication, we can we can think how much we're worth, but saying it in a way that's confident, and professional is a whole nother aspect.
Dave Tamkin
In addition to saying what you're worth, earlier this week, you and I had a conversation about a gig that I knew they were paying other musicians more, and they had offered me something a little bit different, less, and I was able to walk away from that conversation without letting it hurt my feelings because I said, this is what I'm worth. Well, this gentleman is in New York handing out little ounces of like a, you know, an ounce of gold little piece of gold tablets to people on the street and no one would take them. And he was so confident. He was just like, oh, okay, you don't want this. But they would have had so much money if they just took this free gold from the guy and how the idea was the lesson is if you know how much you have in your hand, to offer the world, and there's people that don't want to accept that, that it's okay, because you know how value bull you are. Yeah, so that makes negotiating a lot easier.
Chris Webb
It does and that that kind of goes back to the backbone of how to become a better communicator. It does start inside, right it starts with the confidence. It starts with understanding yourself and your worth. And that's a really good point but another Were a way that communication will assist your music business is in networking. Because this is a people business, as we've said over and over, in it, you'll see it throughout your entire career that the better you are at networking, in being able to create relationships in a professional way that you can maintain and nurture, for the long run, the more that those will benefit your business.
Dave Tamkin
Listening is very important, and the step working portion, but also just to take one step back to negotiating as well. Because if you're not listening, during negotiating a contract, or just the needs of whoever you're doing business with, you're not going to get any further. And that situation. So I think what I just did, there was show like, I gave you an example of knowing what you're worth to the person you're negotiating with, but just as important, listening to what their value is, you're gonna have to meet them halfway regardless and know the value of who you're working with. Right? How you're increasing the value. And with networking to same thing, who's you're speaking to what, what they're bringing to the world?
Chris Webb
Yeah, and it's not to say that these things need to be running around your head, right? While you're trying to speak. That's where the skill part comes in, right? Because we have to become comfortable in those environments with these things, feeling confident, as already a part of the foundation of your skills as a communicator, not what you're thinking about while you're having the conversation. And that's sort of like when you're performing, right? Like we always, we always encourage that when you're performing. The bless you can think about the more you can just be in that moment, the better that performance is going to be. You can't you can't expect that moment of the performance, to be a good time to practice. Absolutely can't think that you're going to try something new. And let that be the focus. Because it won't usually work out very well. You should do that at a different time in here in this moment, your present. Great. And so public relations and things like interviews, and public speaking is another really valuable way to be a strong communicator, when you're doing an interview, it's usually best if you understand what your message is in that makes the foundation of how you communicate in the interview easier. But there's also that aspect of engaging and making the icon to going back to those those two main communication strengths. And how do I implement these in a smooth way that feels honest and allows the person the interviewee or the other people in the group to feel like everyone's having a chance to speak.
Dave Tamkin
That point is made with how you said, trying something new on stage. When we interview people, we send them a few questions. So they have an idea of what they can prepare for. I know when I get interviewed, I'll give those questions to an and ask her to ask me them. And I'll say you know my answer a few times, just so I can spit it out and have an idea of what I'm going to say. And then once you're comfortable with that, during the interview, like you said before, you could be yourself and ask questions comes back, like you're having a regular conversation with someone. It's not always about you.
Chris Webb
And you know, those great interviewees, you know, those people that you interview, and you're like, oh, yeah, how are you so good at this? And that's because they've had the practice, they've practiced ahead of time. They don't need to worry about it in the moment. Right? And that, that is a skill, communication is a skill. And it's also with public speaking. Who do you think the best public speaker you've ever seen was, it can be anybody?
Dave Tamkin
I don't know if I have names attached to any of them. I mean, I've been to so many business conferences.
Chris Webb
Well, who comes to mind for me, my, one of my all time is Barack Obama, every time that he made a speech, or was interviewed, you know, whatever the content, he was just so capable of strong communication, that I just was in awe of that. And it's not just his vocabulary, or his presence as a confidence, right? was also his patience, and his vulnerability that he could show and then get an amazing point across. All of those things are all incorporated in strong communication to me,
Dave Tamkin
Well, I'm just glad you're bringing up precedents that are still alive. That I feel like you've made progress there.
Chris Webb
So another one would be teaching right teaching is a whole nother way of having to communicate and part of that is also going back to the listening and speaking and knowing how to do those two in that environment effectively. But it's also it's also about having a clear message. If you go into teaching a any anything, one on one lesson or just a class. There's gonna it's going to really fall flat if there's no preparation to what you're trying to communicate that day. Social media, this, this one Dave should talk more on because I don't really focus much on social media. But I will say that I know the things that I don't want to say on social media. And that's sort of my guide, what social media is like, these things are off limits, so that everything else should be fine. And that's usually where I start. How do you approach that?
Dave Tamkin
What would you say? Your first off limit is, aside from politics?
Chris Webb
Anything too vulgar? Like, I don't, I don't like when people put that stuff on social media, it doesn't do anything for me. So I figured that's really what I go off is how, how do I want my social media experience to be? And that's, that's where I go from,
Dave Tamkin
what I've seen work the best is when you communicate to the reader, from all my clients, whether you're selling products are trying to get to someone to a show, it's so easy to say, Look at me, look at this, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. But if you take the time to say how does this post affect the reader is when you get the most engagement and people that are interested in? What are you doing Friday night? Did you grab a babysitter? What are you doing Friday night? Do you have plans that that include dancing, great music and this type of genre? You know, have you heard these new songs? It's you, you you, you're talking to the person. And I think the more you can communicate that way, and how that posts benefits the reader, the better. That's great.
Chris Webb
That is definitely a pet peeve of mine, when somebody goes, stay tuned, exciting stuff coming up. And that's it. And you're like, What the hell was that? And that's just insulting is if I'm so into you, whoever you are, that I just can't wait. Because you said that now I'm going to be thinking about it all the time looking, I don't do that. In fact, that just insults me. And I just said, You know what, I'm just gonna defend you. Because I don't even want to know anymore.
Dave Tamkin
Derek Severs brought that up. He said, If you have the opportunity to have someone read your posts, you better give them something worth reading. And he used that as an example. I think he's just like, oh, you know, what's coming up, they just read that. They're on to the next one. Instead of Look, what's here? dive deeper.
Chris Webb
Yeah. For me, the arrogance, the over the arrogance that comes from a message like that bothers me. And that's bad communication.
Dave Tamkin
Yeah. And also, I guess, ignorance, too, because sometimes I think we're taught that, you know, especially in early advertising, like the build up, yeah, but things have changed in in I know, you know, we're gonna be talking about adapting to like industry changes. But advertising is not the same. It is not, it's not the build up, even when you're doing like a Kickstarter. Now, before it's like, Oh, help us raise money for something we're about to make, it's almost more beneficial to be able to give them something right there. And then so they can have the value. And that's the same with communicating, you're going to have a message, like you said, Know what that message is, know how to articulate it, and then provide that value.
Chris Webb
Yeah, do you because if you've put that context on stage, and been like, Hey, everybody, I got a great song coming soon. And then you just sat there on stage, all these people, it's essentially the same as them reading your post right there for you. And that's what you're doing to them. Now, yeah, there's that awkwardness of them looking at you, and you have nothing to give them.
Dave Tamkin
I knew this conversation was coming today. And we went to the AAA radio Fest in Boulder last night. And outside the fox, they had, they had two bands playing outside. And the first band was great. I mean, both bands were great. But the lead singer said the name of the song before he played each song, but I could not tell you the name of the band. Because he didn't say it. You know, until the very end, it was just like at that time, you're in a place where your fan base is not there. Use that opportunity. People know who they're listening to.
Chris Webb
You know, it's funny, little short story. I was playing an event the other night. And this is this is me being vulnerable, and showing that I have lots of room for improvement on all these communication skills, too. So I was playing I was performing as it was like a large lobby, and there were probably 50 people there very engaged, more engaged than normal and a lobby, and they're clapping and you know, and they're paying attention, they're turning all the chairs, they're, they're dancing. And so in between songs, I'm just sort of, you know, picking the next song because I don't preset those setlist and sometimes I get requests and somebody would ask for a song and I'd play it and then I keep going and then we between two songs, some makes she goes banter, banter, banter. And I go, I don't know that one who's that by? I mean, I just, I just don't think of it in those moments in those kinds of contexts of those types of environmental shows. And I really should, because those people wanted it, they were engaged with me, they were staring at me, they were waiting for more. They wanted more from me, not just music, but personality, and, you know, engagement. And so I realized afterwards, I was like, Man, I should really focus more on what they're asking for. And, you know, that kind of comes to that idea of sometimes what people are saying, and not saying out loud, you can just read the room, you can read the environment of the situation, the communication is not all verbal, right. So let's talk a little bit more about communication in music in particular. Certainly, the one of the biggest areas that I think most people have to learn the skill of communication in is the is when you're collaborating, whether it's with bandmates or songwriting that you're co writing with, or, you know, within the business context of being in the music business with other people. But collaborating is, is a huge area that communication can make or break the success. Everybody writes songs differently. Their approach to writing music, their approach to writing lyrics approach to coming up with ideas. And reading that energy from someone else takes takes a few times to get to the point where you kind of understand each other's approach, that's a really important part of being a good musician is knowing other musicians comfort zones, and what makes them the best they can be right? Because if you, anytime someone says we've said this before, and I say this all the time in classes is, if you go too deep into the studio, like a bad producer would do this, and naysay, anything that other people are coming up with, you've destroyed the environment, you destroyed it, you can't get it back, you can't go back from that. And so that is a skill that you need to know right off the bat, right? That is about communication, because what you've done now is blocked their ability to be themselves in the rest of that environment the rest of that time. And that was your communication that did that, right. So it can be very fragile. In those situations.
Dave Tamkin
On this podcast, I complimented you multiple times. And season one, because we talked about, you know how our relationship started in the music world and how we work together, and I am so comfortable, failing in front of you, that it's just a breath of fresh air to like, want to go sing parts, or work on a recording with you, because I have no fear of just messing up. And it just opens up so much in that communication with each other, where you might see some, you know, a part going, how I want to express myself and you articulating that, you know, into a mix. It's something that if you can give that to people, you're way ahead of the curve,
Chris Webb
in I think of that skill as in emotional intelligence. As as, you know, empathy is a part of that. But it's, it's understanding the situation in the environment, and wanting to make it great. You're you're there for the cause, right? You're not there for yourself. And that is such an easy way to make your communication go smoother. Remove yourself right from what's the most important thing in the room and make it about what you're all there to do.
Dave Tamkin
The next three things I kind of wanted to bring up was a book, and a topic that I've been talking with Christopher Morse about, it's the nonverbal communication, self expression and timing and delivery. He went to Nashville, for a DYI Music convention for musicians. There's this book called Live Music Method by Tom Jackson. And he was talking about how during a songwriters set that every song should feel different and look different. If you have a 30 minute set, bring a stool out on stage for one of those songs, your slowest one, when you want people to direct their eyes on you and not have motion on stage. What are you going to say in between songs and kind of have that ready to go? If something happens naturally you're able to communicate that as well. You also mentioned visually looking at someone when you're talking to them but even on stage to have that can action, even if it's with one person a night, is a huge difference. So if anyone has a chance to look up that book, I highly recommend it because it's just been so much fun to see on stage performance, from a perspective that I'm not usually paying attention to. But I think it would help any musician communicate what they want on stage.
Chris Webb
When you get to the next stage, knowing what it is you're going to communicate makes it so much easier to do whatever it is you're going to do effectively and confidently, right? If you get up there on stage, and you don't really know what your stage presence is, or what your message is, as a persona, as a performer, it's much harder to execute that effectively, right? We understand that if we're going up there with a guitar, we're going to stick to guitar playing while we sing right or while we don't sing. But if we go up there, not knowing what instrument we're going to play, that's going to suck, right, almost everybody gets up there on the stage, and doesn't really know what their persona is, as a stage performer. And we talked about this in a recent episode, that you need to know, like, if you're going up there, as somebody like Nirvana, they wanted their audience to feel slightly uncomfortable and insulted a little bit, you know what I mean, but also heard and recognized in the way that they all were a part of a movement, a part of a cause part of a, a message and a time. Whereas most artists want to get up there and connect directly with their audience. And if you got up there on the stage, and to talk and look down the whole time, you would lose that audience so fast, right? But performers don't think of it that way. When they get up there to sing a song, they think I'm being vulnerable by looking down the whole time. But the truth is, that is you being not confident that is you being insecure, right. And so really, what you're doing is getting up there and saying, I don't really care that you guys are here, I'm just going to focus on the floor and do my thing. And there's nothing it's easy for everyone. And I'm not saying that everyone should be able to just turn that off and go out there and stare and smile. And you'll have to smile either by the way. But you do need to realize that it's a communication, that part on stage. And that communication, going back to that other part takes listening and speaking, but it also takes eye contact, it takes engaging it takes reading the room and understanding that nonverbal communication,
Dave Tamkin
You're saying that more than that, it's the musician being that way. It is, and it can be taken as the musician has been perceived to be that way
Chris Webb
while you're communicating something, no matter what, that's what I'm interested in. So if you go up there and choose to not look at your audience, even though that's you coping with your insecurity, probably, or your shyness, or whatever that stage fright part is what you're really communicating to your audience is, I don't really care much about you guys. Whether you like it or not, that is what's going to be communicated in, you know, an unconscious way, often by your audience.
Dave Tamkin
Now, having these conversations with other musicians also helps clarify what is happening on stage. And because I have been talking about these different things, and using the stool, since my last performance, I really made an effort to communicate with the audience differently than I have in the past. But he noticed that Chad, Brad, and I only communicated with each other in between songs. He said we did a really good job of engaging the audience and talking to each other in between songs. But you weren't ever looking at each other or engaging each other during the songs. And it was really nice that he had a different perspective on how he wanted the band to engage and have that feeling that he had when he heard that song, but obviously, we weren't exuding that. But I loved that he was able to let me know that, and I could take it. And I also took it to the guys. And Brad was like, I'd never even thought of that.
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Next time you are in a discussion about money in your music business that is starting to get heated. Choose to talk less and listen more. Ask questions instead of giving input, and see where you end up with this communication approach.
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As always, Thanks for joining us, and remember, there is already enough for everyone, you just need to know how to get it. Until next time, on behalf of Dave Tamkin and myself, Chris Webb. Stay happy, healthy, and wealthy. Good communicators and good musicians hear not only the sounds and words around them but also what's not being said.
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